social.growyourown.services is one of the many independent Mastodon servers you can use to participate in the fediverse.
Single-user Mastodon instance for the Grow Your Own Services site

Server stats:

5
active users

Is BlueSky similar to the Fediverse? No.

The Fediverse is owned by the people and communities that use it. A basic server costs $5 a month all inclusive, anyone can make one. It's ad-free, made by volunteers, funded by donations, servers are independent.

BlueSky is a for-profit corporation funded by VC money. Its technical structure makes servers dependent on expensive corporate-run relays. BlueSky's business setup is eerily reminiscent of Ello: waxy.org/2024/01/the-quiet-dea

Waxy.org · The Quiet Death of Ello's Big Dreams - Waxy.orgEllo launched in 2014 with big dreams, but the artsy social network suddenly shut down last year, deleting nine years of posts without warning. What happened?

p.s. Some misunderstanding of what is required to start a Fediverse server. You don't need to install software or do anything technical to create a Fedi server.

There are many managed hosting companies that do all tech stuff for you behind the scenes, including updates and maintenance. Using managed hosting is about as difficult as setting up an email account.

I run a website at growyourown.services to encourage more non-technical people to try managed hosting.

growyourown.servicesGrow Your Own Services – A beginner's guide to creating your own little corner of the Internet
Fedi.Tips

p.p.s. Another significant difference between the Fediverse and BlueSky:

- The official BlueSky app collects personal data.

- Most Fediverse apps (including the official Mastodon app) do not collect any personal data.

If BlueSky is already collecting personal data now, what do you think will happen a few years down the line when they're pushing for more profit growth?

BlueSky is full of red flags.

@FediTips i feel like that mastodon one is a little misleading re user content. The mobile apps may not but that That’s literally all the servers do: collect, store, and share people’s content.

@masukomi

I wouldn't really call that data collection?

Collecting is where a piece of data is taken without explicit consent. A user deciding to post something themselves using visibility settings they've decided is pretty much the opposite?

The core idea of privacy policies is to give users more control over what data is shared about them. If they're the only ones controlling the sharing, that means they have full control.

@FediTips I dunno. "Contact info" is pretty common. Lots of reasonable reasons to ask for name or email addy, and it's almost always done with consent and needs to be called out in those data sheets even if it IS fully consensual .

@masukomi

If you click on "details", it turns out that the "contact info" on BlueSky means your phone number. Phone numbers are used by data brokers to discover people's identity across multiple data sets. That's why Facebook, Twitter etc started suddenly pushing people so hard to give their phone numbers, because it opens the door for a surveillance bonanza.

Once you give a corporation your phone number, they can usually find out your real name, postal address etc etc.

@masukomi

I don't think people know this when they give their phone numbers, so it seems unclear if it is informed consent?

@FediTips right, i fully agree about the data collection bad, BUT i was more getting at 2 things:

1. the mastodon disclaimer is misleading because mastodon servers do collect user content even if the mobile app technically doesn't. it just passes it on to the server. That's prolly true of the bluesky one too.

2. consent doesn't effect the requirement to have the label.

Yes, mastodon is radically better, but it doesn't collect nothing. it just collects nothing you don't want it to.

@masukomi

Data collection isn't the same thing at all as a user choosing to post something. If you say they are the same thing, it is just giving cover for privacy-invading services to claim they are the same as privacy-respectful services.

The only thing a Fediverse server knows about you is:

-Whatever email you used to sign up with (it can be throwaway or an alias)

-Whatever IP address you're using (which is true for any internet service)

-Whatever you choose to post on your account

@masukomi

Fedi servers know the bare minimum about their users. They're doing the right thing.

BlueSky is requiring more info than they need for the service to operate. They're doing the wrong thing.

@FediTips yup. not arguing any of these points. just that the label on the mastodon app is misleading. The blue-sky app probably just funnels all the 💩 up to the servers like the mastodon apps do. By that logic neither collects anything, but they BOTH do.

WHAT they collect & what makes it acceptable or not it is a separate discussion.

@masukomi

The Mastodon app isn't sending any data back to its makers.

The BlueSky app IS sending data back to its makers.

That's why their labels are so different.

If I use the Mastodon app with a server that isn't mastodon.social or mastodon.online, then the makers of the app never hear anything about me. What the servers collect is separate from what apps collect because on a federated network you aren't necessarily using the app on a server that the app makers have any connection to.

@FediTips @masukomi feditips explained this like it was to a toddler. Excellent work.

@FediTips @masukomi In the most literal sense any method that involves a user's data ending up in your possesion is collection. Far from providing cover it makes a hard line. When someone posts on your server they are explicitly requesting that data collection under the terms as set when they joined.

That all this is counted as collection means there are hard limits on what you can do with the data and you can demand that all data they have on you be deleted.

@FediTips @masukomi If there were exclusions for the way in which data ends up on their servers that could very well be used as a cop-out as it would mean no requirement on their part, they could do what they liked with your data, which they do in the USA.

@oiseau_d_eau @masukomi

The guide to data collection on the app store is intended to help ordinary users work out which apps are better for their privacy.

If the app doesn't collect data, that's what it should say on the guide.

"In the most literal sense any method that involves a user's data ending up in your possesion is collection. "

But it doesn't end up in their possession. Most people on Mastodon have their accounts on servers which are not run by the makers of the app.

@oiseau_d_eau @masukomi

The problem here is the assumption that app makers and service providers are the same people.

On centralised services they are, but not on a federated service. Most email apps are not made by email providers, for example.

The shutting down of third party apps by Twitter, Facebook etc has reinforced this erroneous assumption.

@FediTips @masukomi This is absolutely true, but I'm talking about why GDPR doesn't allow sneakarounds for when a user submlits data rather than it being requested.

It's also possible that even though no data is being collected by the app-makers, it will be treated as a data processor on behalf of whatever servers it connects to. This would mean that it comes under 'sharing with third parties' or similar.

@FediTips @masukomi This might seem a bit overreach but one of the main reasons GDPR exists is to close loopholes exploited under the Data Protection Act so its definition of collecting/processing has reasons.

I'm not at all certain that the way this works would flag up any possible legal issues if it's just a blunt interface or doesn't send/retrieve anything you couldn't do through a website. But it's something to be mindful of.

Twitter launched as a public SMS service. They didn't suddenly bake this into the offering, it as the offering.

@diego @FediTips sure, but what does that have to do with this conversation?

edit: to be clear, what does it have to do with the discussion of data collection labels in app stores and/or good/bad uses of data collected?

(and not that it matters but i was there and tweeted with SMS occasionally)

"Twitter etc started suddenly pushing people so hard to give their phone numbers"

@FediTips My question is are we campaigning for Mastodon to be the No. 1 platform in this space? Or are we pushing for federation to be the way of the future? Because if Mastodon is looking to be No. 1, they'll have to make sure capitol not be a part of how they're No. 1.

@FediTips

Blue Sky is constantly reminding you of their data scraping when they ask for permission for more permanent access to your photos every new day you post or save an image, so at least they are somewhat open in that regard.

I wish I visited Blue Sky more- I’m sorry I think they are failing despite having the most old school Twitter attitude and appearance. But people opt in to the more invasive meta ecosystem, because, numbers.
Fedi can be a bit too preachy, controlling, in own ways.

@todd_kc3jbw

Well yeah, but Meta is a lot further down the path of enshittification. This is the kind of thing we can expect to see in BlueSky's future, they've already taken the first steps.

@FediTips @JonChevreau I signed up for an account there a while ago, back when an invitation was still required to join. I don’t think I’ll follow through on joining, if for no other reason than #Mastodon is more than enough for me.

@FediTips

In case this week hasn't made it super clear: people, in general, are willing to trade some data & privacy for not getting brigaded with racist/anti-trans/sexist/ableist crap.

I've mostly enjoyed using Mastodon, but I have many friends here & elsewhere who deal with & talk about the crummy user safety experience Masodon provides for huge swaths of users in minority/disenfranchised/vulnerable populations.

Their friends & colleagues are hearing loud and clear.

@jack

I agree Mastodon isn't doing what it should about safety, but Mastodon isn't the only platform on the Fediverse. There are others which have placed a much higher priority on user safety.

I'm particularly following @gotosocial which lets users decide who and how others can interact with their posts, and includes support for allowlist federation where all servers are blocked by default.

Once GoToSocial enters beta (which they've been saying is imminent) I'll be promoting it a lot more.

@FediTips Thanks for sharing. Some good info here.

I'm not a big fan of VC-backed networks and understand the risks and problems. For many folks, though, the problems they and their friends experience are visible and visceral and truly affect them personally, while the problems introduced by VC-backed platforms don't directly affect their daily health and well-being, even if overall they are horrible.

I look forward to reading more about the other platforms and tools you're talking about here!